Everything2
Near Matches
Ignore Exact
Full Text
Everything2

The Catholic view on the hypothetical tribesman

created by knifegirl

(idea) by moJoe (2.8 mon) (print)   ?   1 C! I like it! Wed Feb 09 2000 at 11:44:35

So in this, God becomes a state of mind. He will not find his way to "God" (name in lights, bowing down, doing the rituals and the holy hokey pokey) He will or will not follow his conscience in concordance with the "church". He will or will not move through life making choices that make him a better person for it. He will not ever know "Jesus", person, historical figure, spirit etc. Though it could be argued that he could attain spiritual alignment with Jesus as a state of mind, as a set of ideals. In this, Christianity becomes easier to digest for me. As a philosophy, as an ideal, something to attain I can see it. When the idea of Jesus as a roll model rather than divine savior I can indeed stomach. He was a good guy. People who run around like morons "Hating Jesus" because they hate the church make me want to smack them. Even looking at it from a literary standpoint, objectively, Jesus was a great guy. Why dog Jesus? I just can't stand church hypocrisy. Its not that I don't believe in god; I don't believe in man. I can't just buy everything that's being sold. I look at the people who taught me, judgmental gossips, liars and mean spirited fools. Why bother with them? Then I look at Catholicism (the faith in which I was schooled), and look at their shameful history. People STILL die for religion. It has been one of the bigger killers of man. I can't say for sure that religion has saved as many lives as it has ended, I would have to say it would be close. I may or may not believe in God, but this pathetic history of divine fuck-ups is to say the least, uninspiring. I believe we cannot know god. I also believe that power begets greed and strife and for many years the Catholic Church reigned on this planet. To believe them innocent just because history cannot tell us of the rest of their crimes is rather naive. I cannot follow them. They have no idea. You pick who you have faith in, and have faith in God because he is likely a candidate as any, but be careful when you have faith in man.

As far as licking it up...:P

I have some questions for you. Is dogmatic law retroactive? They have nearly 2000 years worth of non-believers that died between 0 and 1960. Did they all go to hell with all the unbaptized babies before we decided to fix this little logical boo-boo? It's all just far too shaky for me. I always fall into the trap of arguing within the rules. Why poke holes? How about this; there are hundreds if not thousands of Christian denominations. Which one is the right one? There has to be a "right" denomination. They all sprouted up when people decided that they didn't believe in a certain aspect of Catholicism so they strayed. Fundamentally, that's wrong. Which ones right? The one I believe is right is right? Does that make me god then, that I should be able to decide what god thinks or does not think? We can presume? The Catholics had it all figured out with Dogmatic law, as it was the spiritual super glue that held it all together, but now... if there is no "right" denomination, then it apparently doesn't matter, and if it doesn't matter, why have denominations? Why have rules and church laws? Man is imperfect, yet God puts my salvation in the hands of the corrupt... A sad thought. Perhaps it's a test. Maybe god knew what a bloated hypocritical power mongering cow that organized religion would become, and decided to test man out to see which ones would follow the parade and which ones would decide for themselves what was fair and right. Perhaps I will start my own religion. :P

Anyway...I am done ranting now...and I am doing this in lynx cause our home network is fucked. I have no dictionary.com and no spellchecker...so you can just deal with it all of you school marms out there. heheh. I am a spelling retard, I will fix it all later.

*SLURP* That's all the licking you are gonna get, next time its the folding chair Ms. Estrada. :P

Ok, spelling fixed. :P

(idea) by ximenez (2.9 y) (print)   ?   I like it! Tue May 02 2000 at 18:35:21

The other place where Vatican II addresses the hypothetical tribesman is in Lumen Gentium, chapter 2. That clearly says that we are obligated to follow God as best we can. A tribesman who has no knowledge of the historical Jesus obviously can't become a Christian. (Incidentally, this is not a new idea--it goes back at least to the 4th century.)

However, even with that "out" for tribesman, atheists, and even Unitarians, there's a lot more to it than basically being an OK guy.


(idea) by Any (2.3 y) (print)   ?   I like it! Wed Jan 08 2003 at 13:53:00

I'm surprised Christians in general (and Catholics in particular) aren't taking the straightforward way out. It goes like this:

  • God knows everything about you: what you think, what you would do in every hypothetical situation.
  • Sin, as we all know, is in what you think or what you would do just as much as what you actually do.
  • So is salvation.
  • You are saved if, in a reasonable set of circumstances (like, for example, having heard The Truth), you would accept Christ's sacrifice and do your best to be good.

It seems like this is the core idea behind the Catholic view here, but they don't say it explicitly, and I've never heard a Christian say it explicitly. But it does have some scary implications: even those of us who are unable to pick the One True Faith out of the many pieces of hearsay reaching us can be saved, as long as we would accept God's sacrifice if we knew the truth of it. (Note that knowing the truth is different from hearing the truth: if you hear the truth among a pack of lies without enough information to pick it out, you don't know the truth.)


printable version
chaos

the tribesman's view on the hypothetical Catholic Revenge of "Christians don't believe" Missionary Paradox Christians don't believe that "being good" gets anyone into Heaven
What would aliens think if they talked to an average western human being? Things to know if you're marrying a Catholic Vatican II Virtuous Pagans
Chicks in Chain Mail We have been shown the plan only insofar as it concerns ourselves Making an atomic bomb Matthew 25
I can't be a scientist because I don't believe in God. pathetic lust Unitarian The Truth
discrimination conscience Christian Ace of Spades
Hypothetical 2000 presidential election results, pretending the states weren't winner-take-all Here Be Dragons Complaining on Behalf IP spoofing
Y'know, if you log in, you can write something here, or contact authors directly on the site. Create a New User if you don't already have an account.
  Epicenter
Login
Password

password reminder
register

Everything2 Help


cooled by pingouin

Cool Staff Picks
Nodes to live by:
Apocalypse
leaving out parts of the truth. you have to.
The Book of Job
The hamster penetration test
race car
PostScript
Immanuel Kant
The Crucifixion of Christ
Bizarre anti-Semitic interview with Bobby Fischer
Fingers slick with mythos
Hot Damn 5! The Dysfunctional Family Reunion Strikes Back
Dissociative identity disorder
It's a jailbreak; we're free.
New Writeups
Choked Chicken
Friends who fuck(event)
StrawberryFrog
fair go(idea)
cesium
Long Day(thing)
Scaevola
Afrikaans insults(idea)
TheDeadGuy
Kissing your sister(dream)
ignis_glaciesque
Stagger Lee(person)
Rai Tai
Adventures in veterinary school: Year One(event)
The Custodian
ram accelerator(thing)
aneurin
Sparrow-mumbling(idea)
calgon
catbox poetry(poetry)
Scaevola
Roman class system(thing)
Meldon
Chicken stuffed with avocado and havarti(recipe)
Scientist
Fortitude Valley(place)
StrawberryFrog
Discrete(idea)
Scientist
Krating Daeng(thing)
E2 is a by-product of the existence of The Everything Development Company